Drum room in garage

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alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#1

Postby alienmuppet » Sun, 2023-Jul-16, 09:48

Hi :-)
I'm looking to build a soundproof drum practise room in my garage. It is only a single garage unfortunately, and I can only use one end of it, so it will be quite small. It is a strange house layout, with the garage built into the house forming part of the ground floor. Kitchen is at the back, and then living room on the next floor, and then bedrooms on the floor above that, so 3 floors.

Unfortunately it is attached to another house, with the same layout, so their garage is right next to mine, etc. And I think even more unfortunately, they've turned their garage into living space. They are very nice though and I will chat with them about my possible plans.

Goal
Minimum: To be able to practise during the day without it being too noticeable, sort of background noise.
Preferred: To be able to practise any time, even late at night, without worrying about anyone getting annoyed.

I've linked a diagram with my latest design idea. Originally I had single stud walls all round with isolation clips for decoupling, but I then figured I could use the existing walls and ceiling as part of the outer skin of an “outer room” and then build an inner room. Hopefully that is clear in the diagram.

You will notice in the diagram that there is an angled wall. Unfortunately I can't really see a way around this without partially blocking the hallway entrance door to the garage. Hopefully this wouldn't be too much of a nightmare.

So, AFAICT, it probably boils down to 2 different approaches to the freestanding walls:

I've read double decoupling doesn't really add enough to be worth it, that's why I didn't bother with isolation clips for this variant of the design.

Insulation
I've read that rigid Rockwool isn't really worth it vs more standard insulation, so maybe standard R13 would be enough? In my case, since I'm also trying to do everything I can to reduce lower frequencies, would using say R45 Rockwool make any appreciable difference? Intuitively it seems like it would, but I’ve read performance is often worse?

Plasterboard / Drywall
Should I get the highest mass 15mm (5/8") I can find? I've been warned against buying things with the word "acoustic" in the title because the price tends to be inflated. The stuff on one of the soundproofing website here in the UK is mid 36kg (12.8kg per m2). I found another on a more standard building outlet that is around 45kg! Would that make an appreciable difference? Does the mass matter more than the material? I’ve also heard good things about “QuietRock” sheets as an alternative, but more expensive, and probably even heavier.

Here is the diagram - I’m looking to improve it and make a 3D version - but I just wanted to get some initial feedback to see if this is even viable. I have had one person say it is impossible not to be a nuisance with drums on an attached properly, but I’m more optimistic based on some YouTube videos I’ve seen.



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Drum room in garage

#2

Postby Soundman2020 » Sun, 2023-Jul-16, 20:11

Hi there, and Welcome to the Forum! :thu: :D

Congratulations on your dream of having a drum room, albeit small!

Unfortunately it is attached to another house,
Ouch. So shared walls and roof, and probably shared slab/foundations, implies flanking. In other words, vibration (and therefore sound) has a mechanical path to get through from your place to theirs. There are ways to deal with that, but you'll need a bit more budget (and care in building) than if it was two separate buildings.

What are the houses made of? What building materials? Also: is the party wall a single solid thing, or is it two walls with a small cavity in between? That's important to know.

To be able to practise during the day without it being too noticeable, sort of background noise
This is probably do-able, but I'd suggest that you first do some testing with a real drum kit, played hard, to find out how much isolation you have at present, and from that figure out how much more you need. This will need the cooperation of your neighbors, as you'll have to take measurements inside their garage while someone plays drums in yours. It's fairly easy to do, ideally with a proper sound level meter (a decent one costs around US$ 100 or so), or worst case, with a good app for your cell phone. The cell phone app won't be accurate, or course (especially in the low frequencies), but it can give you a rough idea of the situation.

Basically, set up a drum kit in your garage as it is right now, get someone to play the same song over and over on it, you measure the level in the room using "C" weighting and "Slow" response on the meter (the level will likely be somewhere around 115 dbC), then close all the doors and windows, go out of the room, and measure the sound level in many locations in and around your house (rooms all over), in the garden (front and back), in the street, and most important, in your neighbor's house. Write down all your measurements. Then do simple math to figure out how much isolation you are getting to each of those locations. That will give you a very good idea of how much you have right now, and how much extra you will need. That, in turn, dictates the materials and methods you will need to isolate.

I've linked a diagram with my latest design idea
There's no attachment on your post, so something didn't work there. Try adding it again, to you next post. The Forum accepts most image types (.jpg, .gif, etc.) , as well as most document types (.doc, .pdf, etc.) and also Sketchup and REW files, so it shouldn't be a problem. It also allows fairly large file sizes. If you still can't upload it, then contact me by PM and we'll figure a way that you can send it to me, and I'll "force" load it form behind the scenes.

I then figured I could use the existing walls and ceiling as part of the outer skin of an “outer room” and then build an inner room.
Exactly! For high isolation, that is indeed the way to go.

Here's some articles that you might find interesting:
How much isolation do you need? How to find out.

What is "room-in-a-room" construction?

What is MSM? How does it work?

You will notice in the diagram that there is an angled wall. Unfortunately I can't really see a way around this without partially blocking the hallway entrance door to the garage. Hopefully this wouldn't be too much of a nightmare.
Angles are not usually a problem for isolation or acoustic response. They can even be helpful in some cases. It's a pity I can't see your diagram, though, to get a better idea.

I've read double decoupling doesn't really add enough to be worth it, that's why I didn't bother with isolation clips for this variant of the design.
Right! Double-decoupling doesn't add much at all (if anything), and under some conditions can actually make things worse. Fully decoupling once only is the way to go, and definitely worth it. Partial decoupling probably wouldn't be enough in your case. By "fully decoupled" I mean that there is no physical contact at all between the existing outer-leaf and the new inner-leaf that you will build.

I've read that rigid Rockwool isn't really worth it vs more standard insulation, so maybe standard R13 would be enough?
Rockwool is good stuff, but that's a brand name, not a type of insulation. Generically, it is "mineral wool", and there are other brands of mineral wool besides Rockwool. Likewise, "R13" is a rating, not a specific product, although some manufacturers do just call their products by that name. In any case, what you really need to know is the type of insulation (usually either mineral wool or fiberglass), and the density of the product. That gives you a rough indication of the acoustic properties. In fact, what you really need to know, is something called "Gas Flow Resistivity", or "GFR". That's the actual measure of acosutic impedance, and that tells you exactly what you need to know. However, not all manufacturers test that and publish the numbers, for the simple reason that it doesn't matter for the real purpose of most insulation, which is thermal. GFR doesn't really influence the thermal properties. It's only us studio-building nerds that want the GFR number. Some manufacturers do test and publish the GFR numbers for their products, but many don't. Fortunately, density is a reasonably good indicator of what the GFR would be, if they did test it. There are "rules of thumb" for guesstimating the properties of insulation products based only on density, but it varies by type of insulation, and by manufacturer. So the best thing you can do, is go to your local building materials supplier or hardware store, and see what they have. Note down the manufacturer, the product name, the product type, and the density (kilograms per cubic meter, kg/m3. Or perhaps in pounds per cubic foot, PCF). Based on that, we can probably suggest what your best option would be.

In my case, since I'm also trying to do everything I can to reduce lower frequencies, would using say R45 Rockwool make any appreciable difference? Intuitively it seems like it would, but I’ve read performance is often worse?
Low frequencies are, indeed, the toughest to deal with, both for isolation and also for treatment. But the issue isn't only the insulation: that's just a part of it. Insulation by itself doesn't do much to isolate sound. Insulation is an acoustic damper, not a barrier. It is part of the isolation system. If you look at the article I linked above on MSM, you'll get more info on this, but basically your wall is a resonant system, and you have to build it such that it wont resonate at the frequencies you are trying to isolate. Indeed, the ideal situation is to "tune" your wall so that the natural resonant frequency is at least an octave lower than the lowest frequency you need to isolate. That means: half the frequency. Kick drums usually put out peak energy somewhere around 70-90 Hz (depending on size and tuning), so you'd want a resonant frequency no higher than about 35 Hz. Lower is better. Fortunately, you don't pla ythe 6-string electric bass, which goes down to about 31 Hz, implying a tuning frequency of about 16 Hz! Even worse would be if you wanted to build a home theater and your favorite movies are all about military canons, bombs, or planets colliding. Those frequencies go down into the 'teens, so for that you need to tune your walls, floor, ceiling, doors, windows, and HVAC ducts to way down in the single figures. That is expensive! That's not your situation, though, so you don't need to go to such major extremes as those folks do. In your case, the lowest frequency is going to be the kick, and that's at frequencies where you can do something to help.

Should I get the highest mass 15mm (5/8") I can find?
Basically, yes. But you don't necessarily need to buy the thickest or most expensive. You need mass, yes, but you can build it up in layers. Sometimes two layers of thinner drywall will get you more mass than one layer of thick, and for lower cost. Play around a bit with the numbers, after you check what is available at your supplier. Drywall isn't the only possible material: Anything dense will do the job. Other possibilities are OSB, MDF and fibercement board ("FC"). FC has the advantage of very high density, which is good if you are tight on space as you can use thinner sheets to get the same amount of mass. To give you an idea, here's the density of a few common building materials (rough values!: varies by manufacturer and product):

Plywood... 550 kg/m3
OSB... 600 kg/m3
Drywall ... 680 kg/m3
MDF... 750 kg/m3
FiberCement... 1,500 kg/m3
MLV... 1,800 kg/m3
Brick... 2,100 kg/m3
Glass... 2,500 kg/m3
Steel... 7,800 kg/m3
Lead... 12,000 kg/m3

So if you really want high isolation in a thin package, then lead sheeting is the way to go! A 1 mm thickness of lead sheeting is more mass than a sheet of 16 mm drywall! Of course, there's a slight price difference, too :shock:...

If you need even thinner, and have very, very, VERY deep pockets, then you could go with platinum, which has a density of around 21,500 kg/m3 (nearly double that of lead).

OK, realistically, your options are probably OSB, drywall, MDF and fiber-cement. So look a the cost per kg of those, and see which makes sense for you. Also take into account that drywall is sort of fragile (it cracks easily), FC even more so (brittle), plywood can get damaged by moisture, etc. There are pros and cons...

So, as you can see in the MSM article, the way you tune your wall is with mass and cavity depth. The higher the total mass, the more isolation you get. The greater the cavity depth (between your leaves), the lower the resonant frequency. And the insulation inside the cavity is the "icing on the cake" so to speak: it absorbs the resonance and reverberance going on inside the wall cavity. You need to fill the cavity completely. To give you an idea of how important that is, the difference in isolation between a wall that has zero insulation inside, and one that is completely filled, is at least 10 dB, likely 15 db, and possibly as much as 20 db. That's HUGE! Correctly filling your cavity with the right insulation is the single biggest thing you can do to increase isolation, in terms of cost/benefit and overall improvement.

The other thing you need, is hermetic seals. Both of your leaves need to be sealed air-tight in order for the MSM magic to do it's things. If your walls and ceiling are not completely sealed, then you lose a LOT of isolation.

So, the plan here is to figure out the combination of how much mass you need and what cavity depth you need to get your resonant frequency right, and your isolation right. There are equations for that in the articles above, but there are also tables, documents, guidelines, and rules of thumb that you can use to estimate. Check out the "resources" section of the forum.

I've been warned against buying things with the word "acoustic" in the title because the price tends to be inflated.
Good advice! Some manufacturers really do inflate their prices for "acosutic" products. All you really need is the right mass on each leaf, the right cavity depth, and the right GFR for your isolation. The rest is all marketing hype.
Does the mass matter more than the material?
Mass is mass. Sound waves don't care at all how much you paid per kilogram! They can't read price tags, and all they care about is how much mass they run into, and what the GFR is of the insulation. In other words, use the cheapest material that will do the job you need, while also taking into account the other factors. If space is at a premium and you can afford to pay a little more, then maybe a thinner but higher-density material will do the trick better. On the other hand, if you have never worked with fiber-cement board before, there's a risk you could damage it with careless workmanship (eg, hammering the nails a bit too hard). Drywall is fairly easy to work with, as long as you take reasonable care, and usually is the cheapest mass in most places around the world. But it's worth checking into alternatives.

I’ve also heard good things about “QuietRock” sheets as an alternative, but more expensive, and probably even heavier.
"heavier" isn't really the factor you are after. It's "cost per kg". If all you want is "heavy", then go for lead sheeting! But the cost is way, way up there. What matters is how much mass you have on each leaf. By that, I mean "surface mass" or "surface density" (in kilograms per square meter, kg/m2, or pounds per square foot, psf). In other words, if you were to cut out one square meter of your finished wall and weight it, how heavy would it be? That's what matters. Choose whatever combination of materials you can get to achieve the highest mass at the lowest cost, while also considering the other factors. And don't forget that you can build up your total mass, in layers, one directly on top of the other (no air spaces between, but also not glued together). I always recommend starting with a layer of OSB on the studs, as that gives you good, tough base layer that you can nail into anyplace, is dense, flexible, and provides very good structural integrity in the sheer plane. Then add layers of drywall on top of that, as needed to get to the mass you want. You can also use a very neat product called "GreenGlue" in between those layers, to greatly increase isolation. Despite the name, GreenGlue is not glue at all! It is not an adhesive for attaching the layers to each other. Rather, it is a specially formulated visco-elastic polymer that keeps the layers slightly apart, and damps them. Of course, GreenGlue is expensive, so it might be out of your price range, if you are on a tight budget. But it does work, and there really aren't any viable alternatives to it (beware of imitations!).

Here is the diagram - I’m looking to improve it and make a 3D version
Try "SketchUp". It's what I use for designing the studios for all my clients. It's a bit quirky and takes some getting used to, but once you get the hang of it is pretty good.

I have had one person say it is impossible not to be a nuisance with drums on an attached properly, but I’m more optimistic based on some YouTube videos I’ve seen.
Not impossible at all! Just not so easy, and not so cheap. The main thing is to identify how much isolation you have right now, and how much you need to achieve to keep your neighbors happy. It can be done. With careful design, a good budget, and good attention to detail in the construction, you can very likely get to decent results.

- Stuart -

(PS. Just wondering why your profile flag is for Italy, but your IP address is in the UK? That's usually an indication of a spammer, but clearly you aren't one(!). Maybe you could fix that, in your profile? Select the flag for "Great Britain", and you'll be OK. I don't want the automatic security software to pick up on that discrepancy, and mark you as spam!)



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#3

Postby alienmuppet » Mon, 2023-Jul-17, 05:53

Oh wow, thanks so much for all that info Stuart. I feel a bit more positive about it now :D

Yes not sure why attachment didn't work, I will get that sorted sometime today. I may update it a little first. It's a bit embarressing compared to some of the other diagrams I've seen here. I think my next step might be to use SketchUp which seems popular, and do a 3D version.

Re the Italy flag, also embarressing, I looked for England and United Kingdom, Great Britain didn't occur to me for some reason :lol: . I'm half Italian so used that instead :D. I will fix that too.

I'm at work at the moment but will do a proper reply later complete with diagram. I'll also see if I can dig out some plans for the house and find out re if there is a cavity.

Many thanks,
Mark.



alienmuppet
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Drum room in garage

#4

Postby alienmuppet » Mon, 2023-Jul-17, 18:27

Here is the latest diagram, for what it is worth :lol:

I've had to work late this evening so not had much time to work on it. I've started becoming familiar with SketchUp so hopefully I'll have something a bit better soon..

Strange question... how hard is it to seperate plasterboard once it has green glue on it? It's just I may end up moving in a couple of years, so wondering how much I will be able to dismantle it to take with me. I imagine I'll have to trash the plasterboard.

One bit of good news - next door's garage conversion is a utility room, so nowhere they'll be spending much time :D.

Also, I think it is only breeze block rather than brick.. when I knock on it, it sounds a little hollow. I am still trying to find out if there is a cavity between the layers..

http://ossl.io/DrumRoom/DrumRoom_V4.png



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Drum room in garage

#5

Postby Soundman2020 » Mon, 2023-Jul-17, 23:27

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post Here is the latest diagram, for what it is worth

Great! Gives a good idea of what it is you have in mind. The angled wall is not an issue. It might even help a little with some types of reflections.

Your door could go in either of those two places that you show. I'd suggest using sliding glass doors, because normal swing doors would take up way too much space inside the room. So pick a spot for your door where you'd have enough room for the sliders.

I'd suggest rotating your drum kit 180°, to face the other wall. I think you'll find it a bit more comfortable like that.

And to give you an idea of what a drum kit looks like in a small booth like that, here's one I did many years ago for a client in Australia.
IMG_1283 copy-Drums-in-booth-from-side-MID-ENH-SML.jpg

IMG_1274 copy-Drums-in-Booth-_MID-ENH.jpg


Taken with wide angle lenses, of course!

That booth measures 2.1m deep x 3.5 wide. Sort of similar to yours. A little bigger. ... and it has an angled wall! I didn't design it as a drum booth originally: it was supposed to be a general purpose isolation booth. But the client figured out how to get his drum kit in there, and it worked out fine.

Strange question... how hard is it to seperate plasterboard once it has green glue on it?
Pretty much impossible! It isn't an adhesive, as I mentioned, but it does stick your panel together pretty well. It remains soft and gooey, even when completely cured, which is part of the reason why it works so well, so it's no use as an adhesive, and would not be safe to use to attach one layer of drywall to another, but even so, separating panels would be pretty darn difficult. Not worth the effort, I'd say.

wondering how much I will be able to dismantle it to take with me. I imagine I'll have to trash the plasterboard.
Your framing wil probably be re-usable, and your treatment panels inside the finished studio will also be reusable, but the drywall ... probably not. You'd have to attach it to the studs with screws, not nails, if you wanted to re-use it (without GreenGlue), but even with screws, trying to get it off and with no damage, probably isn't going to work too well. You could likely save a few sheets, but buying new stuff would be a better option, I think.

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post One bit of good news - next door's garage conversion is a utility room, so nowhere they'll be spending much time
That is good news! But still do the testing that I mentioned. If sound is getting into that room, it will likely also be getting into the rest of your neighbor's house. You share the wall, thou foundations, the slab, and probably the roof, so you have multiple flanking paths. The key on your side is to isolate your drums so no sound can get into your structure, and therefore it won't get into theirs either.


- Stuart -



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Drum room in garage

#6

Postby alienmuppet » Tue, 2023-Jul-18, 17:20

Soundman2020 wrote:I'd suggest using sliding glass doors, because normal swing doors would take up way too much space inside the room. So pick a spot for your door where you'd have enough room for the sliders.


Nice idea, the only problem with that though is I don't think either wall is quite wide enough to accomodate. My preference for the door is on the angled wall, because the other wall may end up with garage "things" leaned up against it, or near it, like the lawn mower, etc. But, all options open for exploration at the moment.

Soundman2020 wrote:I'd suggest rotating your drum kit 180°, to face the other wall. I think you'll find it a bit more comfortable like that.


I just tried that in the diagram, and the room wasn't quite wide enough, though I may actually be able to make the room a little wider (except the angled bit). It's all tweakable.

Soundman2020 wrote:And to give you an idea of what a drum kit looks like in a small booth like that, here's one I did many years ago for a client in Australia.


That looks ideal!

Soundman2020 wrote:That is good news! But still do the testing that I mentioned. If sound is getting into that room, it will likely also be getting into the rest of your neighbor's house. You share the wall, thou foundations, the slab, and probably the roof, so you have multiple flanking paths. The key on your side is to isolate your drums so no sound can get into your structure, and therefore it won't get into theirs either.


I've had a chat with them and they seem up for doing the test. They are nice which is great.

I just need to get a decent SPL meter. I've downloaded the NIOSH app on my phone which is supposed to be accurate... But even so, I'd rather have a proper meter to check with. I'm guessing I need to record the peak reading A weighted? EDIT: Disregard that, found the answer in one of your articles you linked.

I will probably get them to do readings in the garage, and in their living spaces so I can get an idea. The living spaces (except the kitchen) are all upstairs, so that may be an advantage. Bedrooms are another floor up again. These town houses are like that; they are narrow and tall.

Speaking of SPL meters, do you have one you could recommend? I don't know if the cheap ones are going to be accurate enough..

Do you think I will need to add some mass to the breeze blocks? I was thinking a couple of layers of plasterboard (maybe with green glue) or even QuietRock screwed directly to the wall (and maybe even ceiling via the existing joists). Is QuietRock any good? I came across that recently.

I'm quite encouraged by this build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFG-W9nvSrQ

Very different to what I'm looking to do, but it seems silent outside so just shows it can be done.



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#7

Postby Soundman2020 » Tue, 2023-Jul-18, 20:28

I just tried that in the diagram, and the room wasn't quite wide enough, though I may actually be able to make the room a little wider (except the angled bit). It's all tweakable.
Great! Make it as big as you possibly can. Every inch counts.

Speaking of SPL meters, do you have one you could recommend? I don't know if the cheap ones are going to be accurate enough..
I talk a bit about that here, in the article about how to use REW to tune your room: You won't need to do that in your case, but in there I wrote a bit about sound level meters. How to calibrate and use REW to test and tune your room acoustics

Do you think I will need to add some mass to the breeze blocks?
Perhaps.... the testing you do to check your sound levels will tell.

I was thinking a couple of layers of plasterboard
That won't really do much at all. The density of breeze block is basically that of concrete, or a bit lighter. So call it about 2,000 kg/m3. Assuming your breeze blocks are 100 mm thick (typical), that implies surface density of 2,000 x .1 = 200 kg/m2. The density of drywall is roughly 685 kg/m3, and assuming a typical sheet of drywall has a thickness of 16mm, that implies 685 x .016 = 11 kg/m2. Compared to 200 kg/m2(!). To get an appreciable difference in sound level, you'd need to double the mass of the wall that you already have there, so you'd need to attach eighteen layers (yes, 16) of drywall to do that. 18 x 11 = 198 kg/m2. That would double your current mass. According to something called "mass law" (which is an equation in physics that tells you about how well things isolate), if you double the mass of a barrier, you get an increase of roughly 6 dB in isolation. That's in theory: it's more like 5 dB in real life. You would hardly even notice an improvement of 5 dB. 3 dB is just barely noticeable, 6 db you can hear, yes, but not very impressive. You have to get to 10 dB before you can say that it sounds about half as loud as it did. To get 10 dB of increase, you'd have to double the mass again, so you'd need another 36 layers of drywall... (in addition to the 18 you already put up...) :ahh:

As you can see, adding layers of drywall to an existing concrete or brick wall, isn't notably useful.

What you could do, is stucco that wall with a nice thick layer of heavy cement stucco. That would help. But what you really need to do, is to build your second "inner-leaf" wall, making very, very sure that it does not touch the existing outer-leaf wall at all. As long as it is "fully decouple" like that, then mass law does not apply, You a much larger increase in isolation like that.

Is QuietRock any good? I came across that recently.
How much money do you have to throw away? :) As I mentioned yesterday, sound waves do not care how much you pay for your mass. You can pay a thousand dollars per kg if you want, or just a few dollars. The sound waves cannot read price tags, so they don't mind. They will react just the same to your thousand dollar mass as they will to your 20 dollar mass. They really don't mind. So buy the cheapest mass you can find, that will do the job. And use it the smartest way: in the form of a correctly decoupled 2-leaf MSM wall.

and maybe even ceiling via the existing joists
What size joists do you have up there right now? How much load are the carrying? Can you safely add a lot more load to that? The only person who can tell you for sure, is a structural engineer. Any time you add mass to an existing load-bearing structure, or modify it in any way, you should get an engineer to check out what you plan to do, BEFORE you do it, so he can tell you if it is safe or not. It would be very sad to build a great drum room that isolates well and sounds fantastic, but then the roof collapses on your head one day, and severely injures you or kills you. Don't take chances with load-bearing structures.
I'm quite encouraged by this build:
I'm looking at that now, and slowly working my way through it, but one thing I can say for sure: Do not, under any circumstance, do what that guy did! Amazingly unsafe. That was 8 years ago: I wonder if he is still alive, 8 years later? I mean that seriously. Is his studio still standing, or did it collapse already? It would be interesting to know...

I'll comment more completely on that video later, but that would be my initial advice. Do not copy what he did, if you value your life.

- Stuart -



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Drum room in garage

#8

Postby alienmuppet » Wed, 2023-Jul-19, 04:48

Soundman2020 wrote:I talk a bit about that here, in the article about how to use REW to tune your room: You won't need to do that in your case, but in there I wrote a bit about sound level meters. How to calibrate and use REW to test and tune your room acoustics


Thanks! I'll have a read.

Soundman2020 wrote:That won't really do much at all. The density of breeze block is basically that of concrete, or a bit lighter


Point taken ;)

Soundman2020 wrote:What you could do, is stucco that wall with a nice thick layer of heavy cement stucco. That would help. But what you really need to do, is to build your second "inner-leaf" wall, making very, very sure that it does not touch the existing outer-leaf wall at all. As long as it is "fully decouple" like that, then mass law does not apply, You a much larger increase in isolation like that.


I've come across "Fibre Cement" panels too which are much higher density than PB. Whatever I do though, I need to be able to undo it because, I am renting, so unless it is something I can unscrew or easily clean off later it is a no go really. I have been here for 8 years and likely here for another couple of years (I want to buy eventually, then I can do a dream build :D but it isn't a great time right now). As long as I can put the garage back how it was, it isn't a problem.

Soundman2020 wrote:What size joists do you have up there right now? How much load are the carrying? Can you safely add a lot more load to that? The only person who can tell you for sure, is a structural engineer. Any time you add mass to an existing load-bearing structure, or modify it in any way, you should get an engineer to check out what you plan to do, BEFORE you do it, so he can tell you if it is safe or not. It would be very sad to build a great drum room that isolates well and sounds fantastic, but then the roof collapses on your head one day, and severely injures you or kills you. Don't take chances with load-bearing structures.


You've convinced me to leave it alone :lol: and I'd need permission anyway for the aforementioned reason - I need to leave the existing structure alone really. I can drill a few holes in the garage walls or whatever to secure things in place, but that is about it. The only bit I should need to secure is the new outer wall that stops the sound leaking into the rest of the garage and out of the big garage door. The inner pod will be free standing and not touching anything other than the floor, which since it is concrete should be minimal in what it transmits.. I think?

Soundman2020 wrote:I'm looking at that now, and slowly working my way through it, but one thing I can say for sure: Do not, under any circumstance, do what that guy did! Amazingly unsafe. That was 8 years ago: I wonder if he is still alive, 8 years later? I mean that seriously. Is his studio still standing, or did it collapse already? It would be interesting to know...


Wow... :shock: :shock: I'm assuming so, I've not checked the rest of his YouTube channel. I'm assuming they will have taken the video down if anything had happened. What did he do wrong? I'll need to watch it again more closely. Is it the sagging roof he mentioned? That is the one fear I have had with my own build... the amount of weight above my head. I was put off watching all of that weight hanging off of hat channels in some vids (I realize I'm not using them, though at one point I was looking at a complete clip system to isolate PB from frame, and that did worry me.. all that weight hanging off of clips and what looked like thin metal strips..).

Soundman2020 wrote:I'll comment more completely on that video later, but that would be my initial advice. Do not copy what he did, if you value your life.


Yes I would appreciate hearing more on that.. I was going to ask what I should use to make the ceiling of the inner pod safe actually. My plan was to build a 2x4 frame same as the walls. Not sure how far apart the studs should be... 24" or 16" seems to be a thing. I'm assuming 16" in my case, certainly seems a safer option too.

To help with inner pod rigidity, I'm thinking along the lines of what you said: OSB GG PB (15mm). I can always add another layer of GG PB if it isn't quite cutting it..



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#9

Postby Soundman2020 » Wed, 2023-Jul-19, 11:14

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post Whatever I do though, I need to be able to undo it because, I am renting, so unless it is something I can unscrew or easily clean off later it is a no go really. I am renting, so unless it is something I can unscrew or easily clean off later it is a no go really.
Understood! So building an inner brick wall is out of the question, then. It seems your best option is a stud frame with some mass on it. A layer of OSB with a layer of fiber-cement board would probably do that, but first do the sound test to see where you are right now, and how much extra you need. You would only need to drill the floor for that, to anchor the walls with expansion bolts. Everything else would be done on those walls. You could then take out the bolts, dismantle the walls, and fill in the bolt holes.

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post The inner pod will be free standing and not touching anything other than the floor, which since it is concrete should be minimal in what it transmits.. I think?
Right! Any idea how thick those walls are? If you know that, then it's easy to calculate the approximate isolation you should be getting from that.

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post My plan was to build a 2x4 frame same as the walls. Not sure how far apart the studs should be... 24" or 16" seems to be a thing. I'm assuming 16" in my case, certainly seems a safer option too.
Walls can be 2x4, no problem. Since you are only spanning a short distance, 2x6 joists should probably do the job for the ceiling, but you'd need to get that confirmed by an engineer. There are also span tables and equations for figuring out what size joists you need, based on span, load, type of wood, and deflection. I'm guessing here, so don't take it as being gospel truth, but 2x6 spaced 16" OC with a layer of 19mm OSB and a layer of (eg 8mm) FC, would probably be about right. But don't take my word for it!

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post I can always add another layer of GG PB if it isn't quite cutting it..
Yup! :thu:

Now for the response to the video. It's actually hard to find much that he did right! See below...

- Stuart -



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#10

Postby Soundman2020 » Wed, 2023-Jul-19, 12:22

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post What did he do wrong? I'll need to watch it again more closely. Is it the sagging roof he mentioned?
OK, here we go. Just a few comments, in roughly the order they came up from a quick overview of the video...

Notice that that garage does not seem to be sharing a slab or foundations with a habitable space: just with other garages. So not the same as your situation.

Don't use locking clips on your doors to keep them closed! Bad idea. Those doors are very heavy, and trying to manhandle them is a recipe for disaster. Trapped fingers, to start with. Plus closing them too hard by accident (or wind slamming them) will damage those flimsy, thin jambs, moving them, cracking them, and destroying isolation. Also, in an emergency (eg, fire) you might need to get out fast: no time for fiddling with half a dozen mechanical clips. Instead, use proper automatic door closers, like this:
automatic-door-closer-02.jpg
They will close the door gently but firmly, and keep pressure on the rubber seals, for good hermetics and therefore good isolation. Inexpensive, simple, effective, adjustable. It's basically just a spring with a damper on it, and some adjustment bits.

Speaking of rubber seals: I didn't see any! Maybe I missed them, and he does have them, but I'm guessing they are of the wrong type. They should NOT need he amount of pressure he is applying from those latches/clips. Proper seals only need enough pressure to deflect them by about 10% - 15% of their thickness. In other words, if the seal is 10mm thick, then it needs to be compressed to about 9mm thick when the door is fully closed. Maybe 8mm, but that's pushing it. The reason being that over-compressing "squashes" the rubber flat, and it no longer provides the soft "cushion" that is supposed to be there, to create the acoustic isolation between the door and the jamb. With a proper door closer, you can adjust that by turning a screw inside the unit, to get the pressure right.

Also, assuming he has a seal in there, he only has one seal: that's no good. You need at least two seals, preferably three. All of them full-perimeter, and completely hermetic.

Here's info on how you can build your own doors properly, if you decide to go that route. site built door for high isolation Those are probably over-kill for what you need, but the principle is the same. You could lighten up on those thicknesses in your case, and/or made remove one layer. And you probably don't need a window either. Reduce costs, and simplify.

He tried to float his floor! Badly. Hoo boy! Very badly. Here's why that didn't work:

What is a floating floor? How to do it wrong, and how to do it right:

Floating your floor: How and why... and why not.

His ventilation system is laughable. Here's info on how to do it right (hint: you start by calculating how much air you need to keep you alive....)
Why your studio needs proper HVAC.
Studio HVAC: All about mini-split systems, HRV's and ERV's

He used fluffy insulation to line his silencer boxes! 39:00 Seriously? For real? Bad idea! Bad, bad, bad.
He's now breathing in those fibers, every day... The air flow over them will erode them over time, and it will end up looking like a rats nest in there, with progressively worse ventilation, and more fibers ending up in his lungs, and all over his kit The spray-glue did nothing at all to help with that. Just adds another chemical to the air he is breathing. That's probably against code, too. Not to mention the perfect environment for mold, dust accumulation, spiders, insects to nest, .... Here's what that will look like after a while, on the inside...
air-duct-insulation-eroded-erosion-mold-12.jpg
air-duct-insulation-eroded-erosion-mold-07.jpg
air-duct-insulation-eroded-erosion-mold-02.jpg

Yes, proper duct liner is more expensive, but there's a reason they make it! To protect your health, and do the job properly. There are several types, including semi-rigid DuctBoard, but here's a typical one that comes in flexible rolls:
duct-liner-02--lina-B-GOOD.jpg
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Roof demolition and re-build. Dimensions of lumber seem grossly inadequate for that span and load. Don't play with safety! Get advice!

Roof joists are not only there to support the roof: they are structural members that also keep the wall tops in place. Don't guess when playing with things over your head!

Also, the roof joists he used are un-treated lumber (no protection from moisture and rotting....).
He took an angle grinder to the tops of the walls, slicing out huge chunks of brick, greatly weakening the structure, then resting the untreated lumber on raw brick surfaces, with nothing in between... Not even damp-proofing roofing felt. Nothing. Just raw wood on raw brick. Sigh! Bad idea! Unsafe, and probably illegal. Did he get a permit? I wonder....

13:43 What???? He spread what looks like a couple of inches of CONCRETE directly on top of that light-weight, unprotected plywood, on top of those light-weight joists, set in carved-out slots in untreated brick?? You gotta be kidding... :ahh: Please say that I'm just dreaming, and not seeing that gross violation of code, and safety... (and common sense).
Concrete is wet: it releases humidity and various types of salts as it cures. That will get into the unprotected plywood, slowly rotting it over time....
There is a type of plywood called Marine Grade, that is treated to resist moisture. He did not use that. Just plain old bare plywood, and not even structural grade, even though he is using it in a structural application. At the very least he could have put down a sheet of plastic and a sheet of roofing felt, before spreading the concrete.
But the underlying joists are nowhere near up to supporting that load. Even if they don't fail and dump all that on his head, they will still deflect, bend, and warp,,, this the concrete will crack and flake, destroying the isolation he was hoping for. Especially when taking into account the major vibrations that garage is subject to, form the trains passing by just a few meters away...

And that's apart from the sever overloading the is already evident in that roof. 2" of concrete weighs about 120 kg per square meter. Estimated 12 m2, so about 1400 kg. Plus the layer of thick plywood on top, plus the heavy wood ceiling below, plus the insulation, and the joists themselves... probably 2000 kg, give or take. And all of that supported on 2x4 joists of unknown wood, spanning maybe 3m... umm... way overloaded. The excessive deflection is already obvious, and even noted in the video... the fact that he noticed it but didn't take that as a major red flag, is very telling: His understanding of structures is somewhat deficient!

And he used "foam in a can" for sealing the joint between the roof and wall... (expanding polyurethane foam). That has zero acoustical properties, and is rigid and fragile. Nope. Seal with proper acoustic caulk, or at least with good quality bathroom/kitchen caulk. Much better seal, remains flexible, and good acoustic properties.

No gutters on the roof? So rain will just spill down the walls....

The HVAC air intake and outlet are on the same wall.... Thus, poor circulation... They should be on opposite walls, so air can circulate well through out the entire room, not just across one wall.
Also, there's no humidity control in there, so his drum kit is at the mercy of the prevailing weather each day. If those are wood shells, he's going to need to re-tune them all the time, as they swell, shirnk, expand, and contract from the constant changes in humidity an temperature. There are many reasons why studios have proper HVAC, and one of the biggies is to protect your instruments and gear from the climate. Controlling the humidity and temperature, while bring in the right amount of fresh air and exhausting the right amount of stale air, is not a luxury: it is a necessity.

The wooden HVAC silencer boxes are "protected" with thin sheet metal and chicken wire... That's fine, as long as the rain only ever comes down vertically, with no wind blowing it at an angle.... The boxes are painted, not varnished. That won't last long, out in the elements...

And he built a 3-leaf wall across the entrance: Original door-gap-brick wall-gap-plywood+brick... Why?

He added a thin brick wall over the original garage door, which is fine, but then he added as second layer of brick with a very thin gap., some with insulation... but also untreated plywood in gap in some places. Huh? How is that supposed to work? What happens when the plywood de-laminates or rots due to the uncontrolled humidity, and the leaching slats from the brick/mortar?

Also: What type of foundations does he have under there? Did he get a structural engineer to check that, and sign off on building that very, very massive wall on top of a slab that was never design to take that load? Quick calculation: each side wall is 5m long, 10cm thick, 2m high = 1 cubic meter of concrete... that's 2,000 kg, per wall. 2 walls = 4000 kg, plus the two end walls. Likely total 6000 kg total. So he added 6 tons of weight to the floor, but no sign of any structural engineer checking that.... How soon do you think the floor slab will sag/crack under that load? :cop:

Then he made hollow doors, and filled them with sand. That's not a bad thing, actually... if you do it right! He didn't.

And only three hinges? For that heavy door? I would have used six, and arranged correctly. See the thread on how to site-build doors.

He covered the MSM gap between the two door frames with wood! Thus removing all acoustic damping from the door cavity :roll: :shock: That is a resonant cavity, and needs damping. There was a little bit of damping around the edges from the exposed insulation, but he covered that up with the wood... The used more "foam in a can" to seal it in place! :o

Finally, to "demonstrate" the isolation, he shows a video of him playing drums inside, and another video of the exterior of the studio, ... and that is supposed to show how much isolation he got? How about showing some actual measurements with a sound level meter? I wonder why he didn't do that: Ignorance? Or shame? Hmmm....

Also, there's no acosutic treatment at all inside that room: which is why it sounds so bad! Spending a few dollars more on a few simple panels could have made it sound reasonably decent.

The icing on the cake: The studio is located 4 m from a railway line! And maybe 20 m away from any houses. People who live in that area are already used to loud sounds, such as freight trains roaring by. I doubt they'd be bothered too much by a guy playing drums!

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. That's an unsafe, dangerous build. If an inspector saw it, he's in for problems, just from legal compliance with relevant building codes that govern habitable spaces.

My advice to him would have been: build it right, or don't build it at all. Don't risk your life like that. Spend the same money he wasted there, on renting a proper, safe rehearsal space.

- Stuart -



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Drum room in garage

#11

Postby alienmuppet » Wed, 2023-Jul-19, 13:29

Wow.. yes he even said it sagged under the weight "significantly" so had to double the number of joists.. :shock:. I wonder if it might be worthwhile sharing a link to this thread with him?

Hard to say with his floor - it is designed to support a car, but considering when the garage was built (he mentioned asbestos so that could be a very long time ago), cars were a lot lighter back then..

My garage was built in 2005-ish so hopefully it should be designed to take a lot of weight, plus I think mine will be a fair bit lighter anyway..

Also re the ventilation, that was my first thought.. I really did not like the idea of those fibres in there. I'm glad that isn't something that I should actually do - if it was I probably would have tried lining it with another material to stop the fibres coming out, or something.

Thanks for the heads up on the door, I will see if I can source a couple of those door closers, I much prefer that solution.

Back to the ceiling .. Originally I thought 2x4 would be enough for mine considering it would only have plasterboard on the underside, and nothing on top except fluffy insulation; nobody walking, no furniture etc. but safety first! And for such a small extra cost.. 2x6 seems much more sensible. Plus who knows how many layers of mass I'll end up adding :lol: - I do know a professional builder too so I will double check everything with him. I doubt I'll need any bigger. A bit of online research shows it should be more than enough considering the room size.

Soundman2020 wrote:So building an inner brick wall is out of the question, then. It seems your best option is a stud frame with some mass on it.


Is that for the inner room? So layers would be:

Existing garage wall
Air Gap
Stud Frame (2x4)
OSB
FC (or PB GG PB?)

And similar with ceiling except 2x6?

My basic idea was that I'd use the existing 3 walls of the garage as the outer leaf, with an air gap, then the stud walls which form the inner room. I'd then build a "4th garage wall", effectively dividing the garage, acting as the outer leaf to stop the sound leaking outside as per diagram.

Soundman2020 wrote:A layer of OSB with a layer of fiber-cement board would probably do that, but first do the sound test to see where you are right now, and how much extra you need.


Yep getting everything organised for that at the moment, hopefully in a few days that can be done :)

Soundman2020 wrote:You would only need to drill the floor for that, to anchor the walls with expansion bolts. Everything else would be done on those walls. You could then take out the bolts, dismantle the walls, and fill in the bolt holes.


Yeah that sounds fine.

Soundman2020 wrote:Right! Any idea how thick those walls are? If you know that, then it's easy to calculate the approximate isolation you should be getting from that.


Not a clue unfortunately :( Hopefully the sound tests will tell us something. At least though it doesn't matter too much if there's a little bit of bleed into their garage/utility room. I imagine 60dB in their garage would barely be heard unless they are in the garage itself.



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#12

Postby alienmuppet » Thu, 2023-Jul-20, 03:22

Re the wall thickness, I may be able to work it out by measuring at the front of the house.. will try that today.



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#13

Postby alienmuppet » Fri, 2023-Jul-21, 10:42

Hi Stuart!
Do you think having an extra wall facing the wall that I share with the neighbour (and having say a 1" or 2" gap from that wall to the existing wall) would be any benefit? So the new outer room gains another wall of its own rather than using that shared wall. I don't think this would be classed as triple leaf? Because it isn't sealed so no MSM effect or at least minimal. I'd sacrifice maybe an extra 3 inches though I think.

So to put it another way: for the outer room, there'd be 2 new walls (rather than 1) effectively dividing the garage, and 2 existing walls + existing ceiling (and then obviously as before, the inner room is completely independant with it's own stud walls, and a 8" or 9" air gap before outer walls, no change).

Obviously this would be more work and awkward so if you think it'd make hardly any difference then I can leave it. Intuitively it seems like it'd make a big difference at least for that wall. It might make things slightly louder in the garage and outside, but that is less of a problem than the neighbours.

I imagine then the main source of transmission would be the ceiling via the joists, though I can have a nice big air gap from the inner room, and plenty of mass on the inner room. Speaking of which, I am a bit paranoid about the ceiling even with 6" studs and it being a tiny room, so I may end up installing a couple of posts. I don't want big heavy panels held up only with little metal screws falling off and on top of my head..

I'm making progress with SketchUp so hopefully I can clarify everything with a proper 3D mock up very soon..

I measured the drums during band practise yesterday. I saw a peak of nearly 115db, but that is with everyone playing (bass, guitar, vocal, etc) - also it was right near the snare drum, not my head height. I suspect that is mostly from the snare drum so the majority of the energy would be above 120hz I imagine, so that's not so bad. In a pinch I could use a snare with less depth for the room really, so there'd be a little less bottom end.

The room will be heavily damped inside, including bass traps and thick layers of absorbing material, so that might also help a little bit because then the room won't act as a resonator/amplifier. I want it pretty much dead inside.

I should be able to do the sound test early next week. That will answer a lot of questions I think. Plus I should have my SketchUps done by then :)



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#14

Postby Soundman2020 » Fri, 2023-Jul-21, 12:21

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post Do you think having an extra wall facing the wall that I share with the neighbour (and having say a 1" or 2" gap from that wall to the existing wall) would be any benefit? So the new outer room gains another wall of its own rather than using that shared wall. I don't think this would be classed as triple leaf?

It's still a triple-leaf, just not as effective as if it were sealed.
A semi-valid-sort-of-but-not-really analogy: Your kick drum does not stop resonating if you cut a hole in the front head.... The tone changes a bit, the resonance is reduced a bit, but it is still there, even though the cavity inside the drum is no longer sealed.
A while ago there was a post on another forum (don't recall where) about someone who was working on his studio while playing music inside (helps with the boredom!). At one point, he was working outside the studio with the door closed, and as he leaned a sheet of drywall up against the outer wall, the music from inside suddenly became audible, and he could feel slight vibrations with his fingers, from the sheet of drywall. As long as he held it up close to the outer-leaf, there was an audible effect, even though the "cavity" was completely unsealed. It wasn't huge, but it was noticeable. Sympathetic resonance is a real thing.

Another analogy: If you have two kick drums in your room, tuned the same way, and you start thumping on one, you will hear the other one "sing along" with the one you are thumping, even if they are separated by quite a distance. In this case, it isn't the 3-leaf effect, but it is sympathetic resonance. The second one vibrates because it is "hearing" it's own tuned frequency in the air.

Long way of saying: I'd skip the idea of adding another wall. Chances are it would act as a third leaf, or as a sympathetic resonator. Lots of work and expense for doubtful benefit. And lost space, too.
I imagine then the main source of transmission would be the ceiling via the joists,
Your inner-leaf ceiling joists rest only on the inner-leaf walls. No connection at all to the outer leaf. The "inner room" is a complete, stand-alone structure. Not even a single nail can bridge to the outer leaf. So there won't be any flanking through that. This is also why I recommend using OSB as the first layer ob your wall studs: It add a lot of structural integrity to the walls, especially in sheer. The studs themselves do a great job of supporting the weight of whatever is on top of them, but simple stud framing isn't strong in sheer, which is the "side to side" direction along the plane of the wall itself. Imagine a free-standing frame, out it the open with nothing supporting it. Just a sole plate, a few vertical studs, and a pair of top plates. If you go stand at one end of that wall, and push at the top along the wall (in the same direction that the top plates run), you'll see that it isn't strong at all. Without too much effort, you can make it wobble, and with enough force, you can collapse it over sideways. But if you nail a sheet of OSB onto those studs, you can't do that any more. It makes the entire wall a lot more rigid, and very strong in sheer.

So doing that to all of the walls gives you a massive increase in structural integrity, which you need to support the ceiling properly.

I saw a peak of nearly 115db,
A couple of questions about that: Was that on your cell phone with an app, or using a proper sound level meter? Cell phone mics and electronics are not very good for low frequencies, because they are mainly meant to capture your voice as you speak on the phone, and your voice has practically no useful energy below maybe 150 Hz or so. So the mic just isn't sensitive down low. Also, the mic on your cell phone is specifically designed to NOT be omnidrectional, in order to reject ambient noise as mush as possible. Acoustic measurement mics (such as those on proper sound level meters) MUST be omnidrectional, so they can capture the full sound field from all sides. So a cell-phone app can give you a rough idea of levels, but isn't accurate, and especially not down in the low end.

Second question: Did you have the meter (or app) set to "C" weighting? If it was set on "A", then it was ignoring a lot of the low end. That's because "A" weighting is meant for low level sounds, as it roughly resembles the 40-phon equal loudness curve, while the "C" weighting curve roughly resembles the 100 phon equal loudness curve. So "A" is good for quite sounds, while "C" is good for loud sounds. The id range sensitivity is about the same for A"A anc "C", but tThere's a big difference in sensitivity to low frequencies.
SPL-DB-Weightings--A-and-C--GOOD!!!!.gif
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There can be very large differences when measuring contemporary musi on the "A" scale and "C" scale.

So when testing isolation, you should always use "C", not "A". (The good thing is that most municipal noise regulations specify levels in "A" weighting, so you have the big benefit there, of the cops come knocking on your door!)

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post I suspect that is mostly from the snare drum so the majority of the energy would be above 120hz I imagine,
True, but the fllor tom and kick also put out quite a bit of energy, well blow the snare. Snares usually peak somewhere around 200-250 Hz. I use 220 Hz as my rule of thumb for snares, but 80 Hz as my rule of thumb for kick.

alienmuppet wrote:Source of the post The room will be heavily damped inside, including bass traps and thick layers of absorbing material, so that might also help a little bit because then the room won't act as a resonator/amplifier. I want it pretty much dead inside.
Don't go too dead! Drums in a dead room sound pretty awful, actually. Keep some life in the room, or it will feel unnatural, and you won't enjoy your drumming.

Way back in the 70's and early 80's there was a control-room design concept called "Live End Dead End" ("LEDE" for short), which worked exactly the way it sounds: one end of the room was set up to be very dead (huge amounts of absorption), and the other to be very live (lots of reflective surfaces). In theory, it gave very good results, producing a nice clean, well-balanced sound field at the mix position. But mix engineers didn't like to very much, because it didn't sound natural, and was hard to get used to. They also found it to be very fatiguing: hard to work in, and you'd get mentally tired after a few hours. Because it made your brain work over-time to try to make sense of the confusing messages it was getting. So the concept was modified in various ways, putting more reflection on the absorptive surfaces, and some absorption in the reflective region. These days, design concepts such as "Reflection Free Zone" (RFZ) and "Non-Environment Room" (NER) and "Controlled Image Design" (CID) are the norm, and much more pleasant to work in. They are basically extensions and modification of LEDE, but greatly changed to make the room more agreeable and not fatiguing. What I do in most of the rooms I design is a modified version of RFZ. I can't actually copy RFZ exactly, nor can I call it that, because RFZ is a trademark. Besides, I think my modifications to RFZ make it sound even better! But that's my opinion... :)

So, that's a long way of saying: don't kill your room. A dead room isn't pleasant to play in. If you ever get the chance, go spend some time alone inside an anechoic room: those are designed to be absolutely, totally, and completely dead. No reflections at all. No resonance, no reverberation: Just pure "dead". Most people can only handle maybe half an hour of being alone in an anechoic chamber. It sounds very "weird".

There are guidelines, tables, equations and rules-of-thumb for figuring out what the best reverb time is for any give room and any give purpose. For music rehearsal in a very small room, you should probably aim for something in the region of 400 milliseconds, and reasonably flat across the spectrum. Hard to achieve, but a good goal to aim for. Drums usually sound better with longer "tails", but that's not possible in a small room.

I should be able to do the sound test early next week. That will answer a lot of questions I think. Plus I should have my SketchUps done by then
:thu: Looking forward to seeing that!

- Stuart -



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Drum room in garage

#15

Postby alienmuppet » Mon, 2023-Jul-24, 11:52

Hi Stuart!
It's been a busy weekend, but I've done a bit more work on SketchUp now.. This is what I have so far. It is showing the inner frame/room, and then the new wall (frame is a slightly different colour to see it better). The insulation is in pink, and the 5/8" board is in concrete gray. Hopefully it gives an idea. I'm currently thinking I can lower the inner room ceiling a bit to create a bigger air gap to the real ceiling (I feel that will be a vulnerable transfer point, vibrating joists into next door, followed by the joining wall). Let me know if there's any initial thoughts.

Just to clear I realize there's a lot missing. Insulation is only on 3 walls at the moment, and is also missing from the ceiling. Some of the inner 5/8" board is missing too. Also I'm saying 5/8" board, but thickness and material is still undecided for now.

Hopefully it should show that the only connection between the 2 rooms is the floor (and fluffy insulation) : -

https://app.sketchup.com/share/tc/europ ... source=web

Updated:
https://app.sketchup.com/share/tc/europ ... source=web

And yep there's no door yet ;)




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