Yet another UK garden tracking/mix room - Advice please.

#1

Hi all! You have a really excellent source of information here, thank you to everyone that makes a contribution, and for no gain! It’s nice to know places such as this still exist

My name is Sam and I love creating/performing/recording music; something that I’m sure we all have in common!

I’m looking to build a humble recording/mixing studio at the bottom of my garden. After years of recording at home, I’m frankly tired of the inspiration-killing setting up/packing down for sessions, as well as fitting in takes around a noisy family and battling with poor acoustics for recording and mixing. :roll:

After a previous abandoned plan of converting a garage (John Sayers forum), I’ve taken Stuart’s advice and am planning on building a mixing/tracking studio in my back garden as a new timber structure. I have spent considerable time reading Rod’s book and lots of similar build posts here (including garethmetcalf’s build), but any advice/guidance for my specific build would be appreciated. Is there anything I haven’t accounted for? My main current issue is deciding on the roof type (more on that…) I have a carpenter/builder who has agreed to construct the build with me helping out.

Preempting Stuart, obviously a mix room and a tracking room require two different environments. But as it doesn’t make sense to split this size room (I want one room anyway), I have no option but to create some kind of hybrid room, utilising some changeable panels for each function. It will mainly be me recording on my own in the room, occasionally with a music buddy or two. I did see Stuart had posted an informative piece about some hinged panels that swing out to help make the room feel more live when tracking but cannot find it now

The structure Build will be pretty standard; 2 leaf timber structure 25mm apart (cabin style) on a concrete base, OSB > Membrane > Cladding on external walls, Room in room construction using fluffy filled timber stud walls and ceiling, plasterboard and green glue/techsound (not as effective as GG but easier to apply) on internal stud walls. Internal flooring directly on concrete after thin rubber membrane.

After lots of consideration, I am building under ‘UK Permitted Planning’ rules so I have a restriction of 2.5m high externally, however, as my garden slopes down I have calculated a 2.8m max external height (2.3m internal), which will be fine. I am also building 1m away from all boundaries so don’t have to worry about building regulations. I made these decisions to make the build faster (Have to get this built this year), and without all the council bureaucracy. My garden is a fair size anyway and the studio will be at the end. Closest neighbour's house: 50 meters in all directions!

Seems that to maximise height the Roof should be ‘cold’, however, after reading Rod’s book (nothing about cold/warm roofs and studio design in there that I could find) and lots of forum searches, I’m still unsure how to plan a cold roof but have the ventilation working between leafs. Any help with this would be greatly received. A ‘warm’ roof, in a room in room design seems to be a waste of space as the internal room is sealed from outer roof?
Windows/doors (UPVC with ‘acoustic glass’ on both leaves): I want a main triple-glazed front facing window with an adjacent door. Plus a small, rectangle high window on the right side wall. I know windows compromise isolation but I’ve been in windowless studios and I don’t like the idea of making music in a prison. I love natural light and find it conducive for good musicking. I’ll also most likely use the room for some home working too, so would like a general nice room to work.

Build start date: August/September

Dimensions:

External - Base = 6.5m x 5m (32.5 m2) - Height: 2.8m (front)
Internal size: 6m x 4.5m (27m2)

HVAC: Small AC all-in-one unit - No idea what one to get here in the UK. Any good, fairly priced suggestions? active air vent (via insulated baffle boxes in ceiling - as per Stuart’s design) in and passive out.

I have estimated that I am looking to achieve a 40-50 db of reduction of sound. I may have drums in the studio but that will depend on the amount of reduction I actually achieve. It’s not an issue for me to use drum triggers and samples. Drums will more than likely not sound great in that room anyway. As I mentioned before, the neighbours' houses are all roughly 50 meters away from the studio.

Like I said, I at least want to get the basic structure built this year, so will do it in stages: Build the room first and then look at treating the room after (but will be planning that as I go) It’s important to mention that I’m not going for Abbey Road; just a nice environment that I can go and record/mix my own music without interruption and external sounds on my recordings such as the neighbours’ lawn mowers/dogs barking etc.

I look forward to any sage (and crazy) advice from you guys, especially on the roof conundrum.

Cheers, Sam.

SketchUp plan (nearly complete) to follow! (although not sure on the roof design yet...)

#2

Hi there Sam, and Welcome to the Forum!

I’m looking to build a humble recording/mixing studio at the bottom of my garden.

I bet that's how you feel, after taking the decision! Congratulations!!!

My main current issue is deciding on the roof type

Considering that you are going with Permitted Development rules, and the related height restrictions, I would suggest going with a she roof that has minimum possible slope, to maximize interior ceiling height. Another option might be a shallow gabled roof. Either way, the point is to get your eve heights within the limits while still getting the best possible ceiling height.

Preempting Stuart, obviously a mix room and a tracking room require two different environments.

I hear you! sometimes, you have to do what you have to do. So what is the PRIMARY purpose of the room? Is it mostly just a practice / rehearsal / tracing space that will also get used for occasional mixing? Or is it primarily a mix room for turning out paid work for clients, then occasional rehearsal / tracking. Whichever you define as the primary purpose should be the treatment goal to aim for. Then figure out how you can modify that treatment to make it adjustable, so you can also meet the secondary objective as much as possible.

I did see Stuart had posted an informative piece about some hinged panels that swing out to help make the room feel more live when tracking but cannot find it now

You mean this one? What is variable acoustics? How do I do that?

The structure Build will be pretty standard; 2 leaf timber structure 25mm apart

When you say "25mm", I assume you are referring to the gap between the framing for the outer leaf and the framing for the inner leaf? 25mm air gap would be too small, but 15mm framing gap is probably fine... assuming you are going with conventional construction. However, in your case you might want to consider doing "inside-out" construction, which seems to take up more room at first glance, but actually takes up less in the end, and can be very effective at maximizing use of space and also acoustic response. Especially if your primary goal is mixing.

plasterboard and green glue/techsound (not as effective as GG but easier to apply)

Techsound is fine, as long as you understand that the two products are entirely different, and will not give you similar performance to GG... They work on different principles. In fact, GG isn't hard to apply: just a bit messy! Things can go up quite fast and simply, if you follow the instructions. And if you need good isolation for minimum loss of space, then GG would be the best option.

I am building under ‘UK Permitted Planning’ rules

Do you mean "Permitted Development"? Or is there something else now, called "Permitted Planning"? Maybe I'm behind the times...

I have a restriction of 2.5m high externally, however, as my garden slopes down I have calculated a 2.8m max external height

With Permitted Development, 2.5m is for the eaves, but you can go to 3m for the apex of the roof:

With careful design, you can get a finish ceiling height of over 2.6m at the highest point, if you are OK with a slanted inner ceiling. Even if you do a flat ceiling, you can still likely get better than 2.3 m: don't forget that the 2.5 m limit is at the eaves, which they define as the point where the outer surface of the wall meets the roof.

Closest neighbour's house: 50 meters in all directions!

Lucky you! That's great.

Seems that to maximise height the Roof should be ‘cold’, however, after reading Rod’s book (nothing about cold/warm roofs and studio design in there that I could find) and lots of forum searches

I'm wondering if you are talking about "ventilated" and "un-ventilated" roofing? Ventilated means that there is an air path from outside, under the eaves, across the underside of the roof deck, and out through the apex (often a ridge vent). Un-ventilated means that there is no such path, and the roof is completely sealed off from the outside world, in which case you need to take other precautions to prevent condensation and moisture problems. Ventilated is simpler, but usually implies a 3-leaf roof. Un-ventilated is a bit harder to pull off, but can save you space...

A ‘warm’ roof, in a room in room design seems to be a waste of space as the internal room is sealed from outer roof?

The inner-leaf room is ALWAYS sealed off from the outer-leaf roof, no matter which way you build the outer-leaf roof. One of he keys to isolation is that both leaves mys be completely sealed, hermetically, air-tight. Which is why a ventilated roof implies a three-leaf system; the middle leaf is what seals you off from the outside world. It is part of the outer leaf, but seals off the space with respect to the ventilated deck.

Windows/doors (UPVC with ‘acoustic glass’ on both leaves): I want a main triple-glazed front facing window with an adjacent door.

Triple glazing implies three-leaf! Which in turn implies increasing mass even more, and mostly on the middle pane of glass. That could be expensive, getting someone to custom-build windows and doors like that. It would be much better to go with just single glazing on each of the leaves, and use what you already suggested for that: laminated glass with acoustic PVB. That will maximize isolation while avoiding the issues associated with multiple leaves. If your building regulations require double.glazing in the outer leaf, then you can work around that. Hopefully that isn't the case with Permitted Development.

I know windows compromise isolation

Not necessarily! If done properly, there's no reason to lose isolation from having windows. It only becomes problematic when people want operable windows (ones that open), but for simple fixed-pane windows, its not a problem. You might find this useful: site built windows for high isolation

Build start date: August/September

Wow! That's a really tight deadline! That only gives you about a month to get the complete design done! Whew! That's going to be HEAVY going! It normally takes me a couple of months to do a full ground-up design like this, so you will have your work cut out for you! That's going to be tough. You might want to re-think that.

HVAC: Small AC all-in-one unit

I would not recommend that. It will be very noisy, and impracticable to use in a studio. You would have to put it off any time you needed to track instruments, or do critical listening for mixing. Thus, the temperature and humidity swings would be rather wild. Here's an article I wrote a while back about HVAC in studios: Why your studio needs proper HVAC.

I have estimated that I am looking to achieve a 40-50 db of reduction of sound.

A reasonable goal, and achievable.

Like I said, I at least want to get the basic structure built this year, so will do it in stages:

It is fine to build in stages! Many people do that. But it is very important to have your entire design completed first. The reason being that you won't know here the outer leaf doors and windows will be until after you have completed the inner-leaf design, complete with all the treatment. That sounds strange, but is a very real issue. I could tell you several horror stories of people who built something first, then tried to build the studio inside it... and ended up having to move doors, windows, and electrical work so that they could have a usable studio. Simple example: you can't know where your side windows will go until you decide on which design concept you are going to use, and have done the layout for the optimal speaker and mix positions, and the necessary treatment locations... Ditto for the HVAC: You can't know where the inlets and outlets will be, or where the AHU will go, until you have most of the interior already figured out. Etc.

So I would urge you spend the first few months just designing, then build the basic structure once you have a complete design in place.

- Stuart -

#3

Soundman2020 wrote:Source of the post Hi there Sam, and Welcome to the Forum!

Thanks for the welcome! Hopefully I can add something, with my build, that will be valuable for future builders!

I’m looking to build a humble recording/mixing studio at the bottom of my garden.
I bet that's how you feel, after taking the decision! Congratulations!!!

Thank you!

My main current issue is deciding on the roof type
Considering that you are going with Permitted Development rules, and the related height restrictions, I would suggest going with a she roof that has minimum possible slope, to maximize interior ceiling height. Another option might be a shallow gabled roof. Either way, the point is to get your eve heights within the limits while still getting the best possible ceiling height.

'She' roof? sorry, what is that? I think I need a flat roof to maximise height. Permitted Development rules state: If The building is to be placed less than 2.0m from the boundary of the property (and mine is 1 meter away from the fences) with a maximum overall height of no more than 2.5m from existing ground level. so 2.5m is the MAXIMUM height I can go to. Although a loop hole is that the height of the 2.5 max is taken from the land adjacent to the house. As the garden slopes down considerably (0.3m to front of proposed studio in fact) I can build it 0.3m higher and still be within the Permitted PLanning rules. I have checked this extensively and with the local planning dept.

Preempting Stuart, obviously a mix room and a tracking room require two different environments.
I hear you! sometimes, you have to do what you have to do. So what is the PRIMARY purpose of the room? Is it mostly just a practice / rehearsal / tracing space that will also get used for occasional mixing? Or is it primarily a mix room for turning out paid work for clients, then occasional rehearsal / tracking. Whichever you define as the primary purpose should be the treatment goal to aim for. Then figure out how you can modify that treatment to make it adjustable, so you can also meet the secondary objective as much as possible.

Great question. I think mainly I will use the room to write/record all my own personal music and then also to mix/rough master. So both really. It will mainly be myself in the room and sometimes one other band mate that I write with. No paid clients though.

I did see Stuart had posted an informative piece about some hinged panels that swing out to help make the room feel more live when tracking but cannot find it now
You mean this one? What is variable acoustics? How do I do that?

Thanks! I will read again.

The structure Build will be pretty standard; 2 leaf timber structure 25mm apart
When you say "25mm", I assume you are referring to the gap between the framing for the outer leaf and the framing for the inner leaf? 25mm air gap would be too small, but 15mm framing gap is probably fine... assuming you are going with conventional construction. However, in your case you might want to consider doing "inside-out" construction, which seems to take up more room at first glance, but actually takes up less in the end, and can be very effective at maximizing use of space and also acoustic response. Especially if your primary goal is mixing.

Sorry, yes. 25mm between timber leafs. 25mm is too small but 15mm is OK? you got me there

I will research the 'inside out' method. Thanks

plasterboard and green glue/techsound (not as effective as GG but easier to apply)
Techsound is fine, as long as you understand that the two products are entirely different, and will not give you similar performance to GG... They work on different principles. In fact, GG isn't hard to apply: just a bit messy! Things can go up quite fast and simply, if you follow the instructions. And if you need good isolation for minimum loss of space, then GG would be the best option.

I'm not against GG it's just slower to apply.

I am building under ‘UK Permitted Planning’ rules
Do you mean "Permitted Development"? Or is there something else now, called "Permitted Planning"? Maybe I'm behind the times...

Permitted Development, yes. Sorry. As above.

I have a restriction of 2.5m high externally, however, as my garden slopes down I have calculated a 2.8m max external height
With Permitted Development, 2.5m is for the eaves, but you can go to 3m for the apex of the roof: Permitted-development-eaves-extract.jpg With careful design, you can get a finish ceiling height of over 2.6m at the highest point, if you are OK with a slanted inner ceiling. Even if you do a flat ceiling, you can still likely get better than 2.3 m: don't forget that the 2.5 m limit is at the eaves, which they define as the point where the outer surface of the wall meets the roof.

As above. 2.5m (2.8 in my case) is the total max height as I am within 2m of boundary: If The building is to be placed less than 2.0m from the boundary of the property (and mine is 1 meter away from the fences) with a maximum overall height of no more than 2.5m from existing ground level.

Closest neighbour's house: 50 meters in all directions!
Lucky you! That's great.

Yep!

Seems that to maximise height the Roof should be ‘cold’, however, after reading Rod’s book (nothing about cold/warm roofs and studio design in there that I could find) and lots of forum searches
I'm wondering if you are talking about "ventilated" and "un-ventilated" roofing? Ventilated means that there is an air path from outside, under the eaves, across the underside of the roof deck, and out through the apex (often a ridge vent). Un-ventilated means that there is no such path, and the roof is completely sealed off from the outside world, in which case you need to take other precautions to prevent condensation and moisture problems. Ventilated is simpler, but usually implies a 3-leaf roof. Un-ventilated is a bit harder to pull off, but can save you space...

Looking at flat roofs, I have consistently come across War roof vs Cold Roof: https://www.spacetwo.co.uk/blog/2016/8/ ... cold-roofs

Yes, I think you are right, it's ventilated vs not.

A ‘warm’ roof, in a room in room design seems to be a waste of space as the internal room is sealed from outer roof?
The inner-leaf room is ALWAYS sealed off from the outer-leaf roof, no matter which way you build the outer-leaf roof. One of he keys to isolation is that both leaves mys be completely sealed, hermetically, air-tight. Which is why a ventilated roof implies a three-leaf system; the middle leaf is what seals you off from the outside world. It is part of the outer leaf, but seals off the space with respect to the ventilated deck.

I think I understand. Given my height restrictions, please indicate what I should do here.

Windows/doors (UPVC with ‘acoustic glass’ on both leaves): I want a main triple-glazed front facing window with an adjacent door.
Triple glazing implies three-leaf! Which in turn implies increasing mass even more, and mostly on the middle pane of glass. That could be expensive, getting someone to custom-build windows and doors like that. It would be much better to go with just single glazing on each of the leaves, and use what you already suggested for that: laminated glass with acoustic PVB. That will maximize isolation while avoiding the issues associated with multiple leaves. If your building regulations require double.glazing in the outer leaf, then you can work around that. Hopefully that isn't the case with Permitted Development.

Thanks. Yes, that is what I meant. I will use single glazing windows/doors on both leaves with acoustic glass as you suggest. I don't have to adhere to Building Regs as I am 1m away from the boundary. I will of course build to Building Reg standard to ensure a solid build.

I know windows compromise isolation
Not necessarily! If done properly, there's no reason to lose isolation from having windows. It only becomes problematic when people want operable windows (ones that open), but for simple fixed-pane windows, its not a problem. You might find this useful: site built windows for high isolation

Great to hear. I will have an opening main window for days that I may work from home, i.e. no music.

Build start date: August/September
Wow! That's a really tight deadline! That only gives you about a month to get the complete design done! Whew! That's going to be HEAVY going! It normally takes me a couple of months to do a full ground-up design like this, so you will have your work cut out for you! That's going to be tough. You might want to re-think that.

I can push back the build month to October but I have nearly finished the Sketch Up drawing, so should be doable, I hope?

HVAC: Small AC all-in-one unit
I would not recommend that. It will be very noisy, and impracticable to use in a studio. You would have to put it off any time you needed to track instruments, or do critical listening for mixing. Thus, the temperature and humidity swings would be rather wild. Here's an article I wrote a while back about HVAC in studios: Why your studio needs proper HVAC.

I'm not sure if I have explained it properly but have a friend who has a unit with the main fan on the back of studio and Air con/heat inside. I have no problem turning it off when tracking/mixing.

I have estimated that I am looking to achieve a 40-50 db of reduction of sound.
A reasonable goal, and achievable.

Cool!

Like I said, I at least want to get the basic structure built this year, so will do it in stages:
It is fine to build in stages! Many people do that. But it is very important to have your entire design completed first. The reason being that you won't know here the outer leaf doors and windows will be until after you have completed the inner-leaf design, complete with all the treatment. That sounds strange, but is a very real issue. I could tell you several horror stories of people who built something first, then tried to build the studio inside it... and ended up having to move doors, windows, and electrical work so that they could have a usable studio. Simple example: you can't know where your side windows will go until you decide on which design concept you are going to use, and have done the layout for the optimal speaker and mix positions, and the necessary treatment locations... Ditto for the HVAC: You can't know where the inlets and outlets will be, or where the AHU will go, until you have most of the interior already figured out. Etc.

Thanks! I hear you! I want to get it right, that is why I am designing the location of the doors/windows for both leafs now. Obviously I need help with the roof design and working out the ventilation.

So I would urge you spend the first few months just designing, then build the basic structure once you have a complete design in place.

Good plan. Hopefully I can do it a bit quicker as this is not a commercial studio build, more of a glorified music shed in my garden.

- Stuart -

Thanks for all your advice and taking the time to respond, Stuart.

Look forward to any replies/suggestions on the roof/HVAC

Cheers!

Sam.

#4

'She' roof? sorry, what is that?

Damn this keyboard! It's in a really bad state, and I have to replace it, but I'm not keen on opening up the notebook.
Yup, that was supposed to be a "shed roof", not a "she roof". :oops:

Although a loop hole is that the height of the 2.5 max is taken from the land adjacent to the house.

There's another loophole that I have used with some of my clients in the UK: You can dig down as deep as you want! So if you dig out a 50cm hole then your interior ceiling height can be 2.8m, even thought the roof height is only 2.5m... Of course, you need to do the bottom part of the walls with cinder block, up to just above ground level, but if you really need the additional height, then that works very well.

Take a look at Tom's build for example, to see what we did there: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32

Sorry, yes. 25mm between timber leafs. 25mm is too small but 15mm is OK? you got me there

Now this one I can't blame on the keyboard! That was just my fingers getting in the way... Yup, should have been 25mm...

I will have an opening main window for days that I may work from home, i.e. no music.

As I mentioned, it's the operable (opening) windows that create the problems for high isolation. You can still get good isolation with operable windows, but that is going to cost you a lot more. They key issue is the seals: Air-tight seals is critical for high isolation. The basic rule is simple: If air can get out, then so can sound. Even a tiny crack can allow through a surprising amount of sound. For operable windows, getting them to seal properly, and stay that way over time, isn't easy. Acoustic high-isolation windows are going to set you back quite a bit.

There's also the issue of sliding vs. hinged: It's easier to get good isolation on hinged windows, but then you have to account for the inner-leaf window opening inwards into the room, and therefore taking up space, while it's outer-leaf "sister" open outwards, into the outside world. Sliders don't have that problem, or course, but getting good seals on sliders is tougher, and more expensive.

That's why I don't recommend operable windows in studio. If the HVAC system is done correctly, then you shouldn't have a need for operable windows. Yes, they are nice to have, but the basic concept comes down to: is this a studio, or is it just an ordinary outbuilding? If the primary purpose is to be a studio, then there are some "nice to have" things that are going to be a lot harder to do (and a lot more expensive). On the other hand, if the primary purpose is to be an ordinary garden office, with music only being secondary and not that important, then it's fins to have simple "Home Depot" style windows, as long as you don't need good isolation. As with most things in studio design, it's all about trade-offs. Your studio can be good, pretty, and cheap. Pick any two of those....

(and usually you only get to pick one...)

I can push back the build month to October but I have nearly finished the Sketch Up drawing, so should be doable, I hope?

Maybe.... If your SketcUp looks somthing like this, then you are OK. Otherwise, you will probably need more time:

https://digistar.cl/StudioShowcase/BRAL ... 4d-CMP.mp4

I'm not sure if I have explained it properly but have a friend who has a unit with the main fan on the back of studio and Air con/heat inside. I have no problem turning it off when tracking/mixing.

You mean like this:

The compressor (bottom half of photo) outdoors, and the AHU (upper half of photo) indoors, connected with a pipe bundle? That's not an "all in one" unit. That is a "mini-split system". It is called "split" because the two functions are divided into two separate boxes, separated by a bunch of pipes and cables. That is indeed a very good way to provide the "H" and "AC" parts of HVAC, but it does not provide the "V" part: Ventilation. You need the ducts/fans/silencers to provide the "V".

You can certainly do it that way if you want, and it can work very well. Indeed, the studio in the video I linked to above is done like that.

Another option is to do it the way we did Tom's place. It is somewhat similar, but the AHU does not go in the room: it goes in the duct system, outside the room. It's a slightly different model of AHU, called a "ducted AHU", whereas the other type that you put in the room on the wall is "ductless". Using a ducted AHU means that the HVAC will be totally silent inside the room, which can be important for some scenarios. Even though modern ductless units are very quite, then can still be too noisy for some tracking, where you are trying to capture the subtle sounds and nuances of a quiet instrument or soft vocal performance. Ductless AHU's often have relays inside that click on and off, and the refrigerant moving in the pipes can sometimes be audible, as can the occasional gurgle of water in the condensate drain. If those don't mater to you, then ductless is fine. But for more silent operations, ducted is the way to go.

This is the difference between ducted and ductless AHU's:

: HVAC--mini-split-ahu-and-typical-indoor-units-ducted-and-unducted-ductless-compare.jpg (25.91 KiB) Viewed 30364 times

: HVAC--mini-split-ahu-and-typical-indoor-units-ducted-and-unducted-ductless-compare.jpg (25.91 KiB) Viewed 30364 times

I have no problem turning it off when tracking/mixing.

A lot of people think that way when they first start out designing their studio. Some even build their studios that way... then live to regret it greatly, once the studio is operating!

You might find this informative about all of the above, relating to HVAC. Studio HVAC: All about mini-split systems, HRV's and ERV's

- Stuart -

#5

Hi Sam
Your build sounds very similar to mine. Whereabouts are you?

I would gladly share the benefit of my experience having nearly completed something similar and some of the mistakes I made that you might be able to avoid. Send me a pm if you want to arrange a call or something.

Stuart is spot on right about getting the plans right from the start. That was crucial for me in window placement and what that meant for the outside walls etc as well as the location of the silencers. I went for a warm roof and used the dead space between outside room roof joists for my silencers. I don’t think you’d loose any space doing a warm roof over a cold and from my understanding it’s easier to build.

I built my stud wall frames in 2.4m long sections and my brother in law and I assembled them on the dwarf walls, fitted the roof joists and the first layer of roof OSB in one longish day. In some ways the biggest things were the quickest to do. I never knew how long clipping the mains cables to the frame would take… for example!

Cheers
Gareth

#6

Thanks for the answers and sorry it has taken me a while to respond but I am also renovating the house at present, pretty much by myself, so I have been flat out with that...

Soundman2020 wrote:Source of the post
'She' roof? sorry, what is that?
Damn this keyboard! It's in a really bad state, and I have to replace it, but I'm not keen on opening up the notebook.
Yup, that was supposed to be a "shed roof", not a "she roof".

So, do you just mean a flat roof? that is what I am thinking but as Gareth said, a warm roof might be my only option with the ventilation in between the rafters.

Although a loop hole is that the height of the 2.5 max is taken from the land adjacent to the house.
There's another loophole that I have used with some of my clients in the UK: You can dig down as deep as you want! So if you dig out a 50cm hole then your interior ceiling height can be 2.8m, even thought the roof height is only 2.5m... Of course, you need to do the bottom part of the walls with cinder block, up to just above ground level, but if you really need the additional height, then that works very well.

Take a look at Tom's build for example, to see what we did there: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32

Yep, I have thought of that but I'm not prepared to dig down due to the complexity, nightmares I saw of Gareths flood, and also cost. as I have the extra 0.3M height, I am just going to make sure the concrete base is just below the ground level and build on that. I saw the costs that Tom mentioned on his. :shock:

I just can't spend that much on my build; I don't have it. I have 10K saved for this build which I know probably isn't enough but should be able to get the main structure/roof built.

Sorry, yes. 25mm between timber leafs. 25mm is too small but 15mm is OK? you got me there
Now this one I can't blame on the keyboard! That was just my fingers getting in the way... Yup, should have been 25mm...

Cool! that is my plan.

I will have an opening main window for days that I may work from home, i.e. no music.
As I mentioned, it's the operable (opening) windows that create the problems for high isolation. You can still get good isolation with operable windows, but that is going to cost you a lot more. They key issue is the seals: Air-tight seals is critical for high isolation. The basic rule is simple: If air can get out, then so can sound. Even a tiny crack can allow through a surprising amount of sound. For operable windows, getting them to seal properly, and stay that way over time, isn't easy. Acoustic high-isolation windows are going to set you back quite a bit.

There's also the issue of sliding vs. hinged: It's easier to get good isolation on hinged windows, but then you have to account for the inner-leaf window opening inwards into the room, and therefore taking up space, while it's outer-leaf "sister" open outwards, into the outside world. Sliders don't have that problem, or course, but getting good seals on sliders is tougher, and more expensive.

That's why I don't recommend operable windows in studio. If the HVAC system is done correctly, then you shouldn't have a need for operable windows. Yes, they are nice to have, but the basic concept comes down to: is this a studio, or is it just an ordinary outbuilding? If the primary purpose is to be a studio, then there are some "nice to have" things that are going to be a lot harder to do (and a lot more expensive). On the other hand, if the primary purpose is to be an ordinary garden office, with music only being secondary and not that important, then it's fins to have simple "Home Depot" style windows, as long as you don't need good isolation. As with most things in studio design, it's all about trade-offs. Your studio can be good, pretty, and cheap. Pick any two of those.... (and usually you only get to pick one...)

I will reassess this and get back. Maybe sliding windows on inner leaf and a small opening window on the outer...

I can push back the build month to October but I have nearly finished the Sketch Up drawing, so should be doable, I hope?
Maybe.... If your SketchUp looks somthing like this, then you are OK. Otherwise, you will probably need more time:

https://digistar.cl/StudioShowcase/BRAL ... 4d-CMP.mp4

haha, it's not as complete as that. To be honest, I have downloaded Gareth's design (hope you don't mind Gareth?) and have pilfered quite a bit of the design from there. The Sketch up trial has just ended (shame they took away the free download version - as you say the web version is a pain) but I will sort it out again.

I'm not sure if I have explained it properly but have a friend who has a unit with the main fan on the back of studio and Air con/heat inside. I have no problem turning it off when tracking/mixing.
You mean like this: mini-split-system.jpg The compressor (bottom half of photo) outdoors, and the AHU (upper half of photo) indoors, connected with a pipe bundle? That's not an "all in one" unit. That is a "mini-split system". It is called "split" because the two functions are divided into two separate boxes, separated by a bunch of pipes and cables. That is indeed a very good way to provide the "H" and "AC" parts of HVAC, but it does not provide the "V" part: Ventilation. You need the ducts/fans/silencers to provide the "V".

You can certainly do it that way if you want, and it can work very well. Indeed, the studio in the video I linked to above is done like that.

Another option is to do it the way we did Tom's place. It is somewhat similar, but the AHU does not go in the room: it goes in the duct system, outside the room. It's a slightly different model of AHU, called a "ducted AHU", whereas the other type that you put in the room on the wall is "ductless". Using a ducted AHU means that the HVAC will be totally silent inside the room, which can be important for some scenarios. Even though modern ductless units are very quite, then can still be too noisy for some tracking, where you are trying to capture the subtle sounds and nuances of a quiet instrument or soft vocal performance. Ductless AHU's often have relays inside that click on and off, and the refrigerant moving in the pipes can sometimes be audible, as can the occasional gurgle of water in the condensate drain. If those don't mater to you, then ductless is fine. But for more silent operations, ducted is the way to go.

This is the difference between ducted and ductless AHU's: HVAC--mini-split-ahu-and-typical-indoor-units-ducted-and-unducted-ductless-compare.jpg

Cool, yes that is what I meant, I like the look of the mini-split and will check some prices etc. Will look at the other options you suggested and link. Thanks!

I have no problem turning it off when tracking/mixing.
A lot of people think that way when they first start out designing their studio. Some even build their studios that way... then live to regret it greatly, once the studio is operating!

Yea, I hear that but I really don't mind. It is the UK and there will be long sections of time where heat/cold will not be needed. Even Tom was saying that he hasn't even got the HVAC installed yet and it is fine.

You might find this informative about all of the above, relating to HVAC. Studio HVAC: All about mini-split systems, HRV's and ERV's

- Stuart -[/quote]

#7

garethmetcalf wrote:Source of the post Hi Sam
Your build sounds very similar to mine. Whereabouts are you?

Hi Gareth! thanks for the generous offer! I'm in Surrey.

I would gladly share the benefit of my experience having nearly completed something similar and some of the mistakes I made that you might be able to avoid. Send me a pm if you want to arrange a call or something.

That would be really good. I'll PM you.

Stuart is spot on right about getting the plans right from the start. That was crucial for me in window placement and what that meant for the outside walls etc as well as the location of the silencers. I went for a warm roof and used the dead space between outside room roof joists for my silencers. I don’t think you’d loose any space doing a warm roof over a cold and from my understanding it’s easier to build.

That sounds great. As I said in my reply to Stuart, I have downloaded your plans an have been looking at the roof design, looks great!

I built my stud wall frames in 2.4m long sections and my brother in law and I assembled them on the dwarf walls, fitted the roof joists and the first layer of roof OSB in one longish day. In some ways the biggest things were the quickest to do. I never knew how long clipping the mains cables to the frame would take… for example!

My builder/carpenter friend should have no issue with this either, and I have said I can help him. I'm sure you are right about little things taken longer than expected, don't they always. My house renovation should have been complete by now but we still living in a bit of a building site getting there though.

Cheers
Gareth

#8

Just as an FYI the warm roof is the design that doesn’t require ventilation between the rafters, so is much easier to seal than a cold. This is what I went for…
Cheers
Gareth

#9

Hi all, thought I would provide an update as to the current direction.

Thinking about the main use of the room, I want it to be a recording studio AND a room that can turn out decent mixes. Obviously there will ahve to be compromises but I'll do my best to have a fairly decent environment for both activities

Did I also mention that I may work out of it on some days as part of the new flexible office world! lol

After a lengthy chat on the phone with Gareth (thanks Gareth!), I have decided, in an attempt to save as much money and headache as possible, to copy his thorough plans where possible, without needing the cost of architect and a structural engineer. Our builds are very similar and it makes sense to stand on the shoulders of giants...

I have revised my plan slightly to take on board advice from Stuart and Gareth, and feel like I'm getting into good shape now. Although my final design is yet to be decided upon, the potential changes are only the doors and windows. As a result, I decided that it would be best to at least get the ball rolling with the foundations. Procrastination is over; the ground works are starting this Sunday! :shock:

As my garden appears to be very similar to Gareth's (clay soil too) I will be using the same foundations. A builder friend has also mentioned that, that base is over-engined, but better to be safe, so I am happy with it. It's pretty straightforward foundation for this build:

concrete Base will be 225mm deep with a mesh inside. (Concrete pumped to make it easier) On top of
DPM
25mm Sand
150mm Type 1 DOT granular hardcore.

I'll be building the stud frames directly onto the slab.

After some calculations, I have decided to go with the warm roof and have the ventilation boxes inside the gaps of internal and external roofs, as Gareth has also done. I will copy the brilliant design of Stuart's silent vent boxes.

roof:

As you can see, this design will give me 2.2m Internal height, which is fine. (2190mm with a thin rubber underfloor material on the concrete and laminate floor on top) I'm thinking that without an insulated floor it could be cold in there but that is what heating is for! Hoping it won't be too cold...

Maybe I could also use thinner insulation in the warm roof to give more internal height?

I'm also thinking that I could do the inside roof inside out, as Gareth has done. Would make it feel bigger and would then have more options for the treatment/non treatment for a live feel. Any thoughts on this?

Outer walls:

On the stud walls probably going to have two layers of OSB. If the isolation does manage to get to the levels I'm looking for (40-45db reduction) I may be able to use a small kit in there... IF not, no biggie, I'll use electronic pads to trigger samples.
then DPM and outer cladding. Something that looks nice.

Inner walls:

Same inner stud walls with two layers of Plasterboard, maybe green glue but from isolation levels I'm seeing at Gareths place, I doubt I'll need it. Also thinking that an inside out design would give me great options for have a changeable environment; I could use modules that could be turned round and fit inside the studs to either absorb sound (mixing) or have the hard side out for a more live sound... more thinking required...

Windows:

Taking Stuart's advice so the windows will now be non-opening. I'm still reading/learning about the actual construction of the windows, and best practices but my current idea is to have a nice long, thin one up high on the far wall (above the monitors) and a 1m x 1.5m 'main' window on the front of the room. As I am planning to have a solid wood door/s, I'm trying to work out if these windows will give me enough light... The side wall one won't change but the main one could be enlarged.

If anyone has glass companies that they would recommend here in the UK, I would appreciate a pointer.

Some pics of my current design in SketchUp:

As you can see the plan needs a few bits fixed but getting there!

HVAC:

Going for a split system on the 'back wall' (opposite to the wall with the main window and door on) - Still researching which one and costs etc but do I need to create yet another silencer for the connection from the compressor on the outside wall to the inner unit?

Electrics:

Running an armoured power/ethernet cable in the ground and up through the side of concrete base into the structure. LED downlighters on the inside. (will probably have to surface mount unless I go inside out design)

That's it for now I think. I'll be back with some pictures of a huge hole in my back garden on Monday...

Cheers!

#10

BeardMusic wrote:Source of the postOn the stud walls probably going to have ...

... will probably have to surface mount unless ...

I'll be back with ... a huge hole in my back garden on Monday.

Sam, the word probably rings some alarm bells with me. Just make sure you don't do something before you are certain of what your plans are. An off the top of my head example might be that you decide where a window will be without checking that the sun will shine through it at some point in the year and cause a problem seeing your computer screen or shining directly onto wood, especially a wooden musical instrument.

Basing your studio on Gareth's sounds good. I look forward to watching it come along.

#11

Greetings Sam,

without needing the cost of architect and a structural engineer.

You likely don't need the former, but it's surely a good idea to employ the latter. It might even be required by local codes/ordinances.

All the best,

Paul

#12

Looks good Sam and I’m glad my plans and our call have helped. Everyone I told about my concrete base said it was probably over engineered but I’m guessing with two entire structure’s worth of weight (inner and outer walls and roofs) on the edge of the concrete over engineered is a good thing.

The advice about where the sun shines is worth noting, in terms of window location.

I got my glass from a local supplier and picked it up in my car. Their price was about the same as online so I’d recommend looking local.

You won’t need an additional air silencer for the mini-split as it doesn’t have an air duct of its own: there are just a couple of thinnish pipes and a cable between the inside and outside units. These pipes carry the refrigerant liquid. I’ve seen a build somewhere where Stuart suggests coiling these in the gap between the walls. I can’t remember where though sorry. The main thing I think is that the hole where they break through the inner room wall needs to be offset from the hole where they break through the outer wall, just to remove a direct path for sound from in to out. Hope this makes sense!!

Good luck with the construction starting.

Gareth

#13

Thanks for all the concerns/suggestions guys.

The sun actually rises behind the studio and continues it's arc up and around the side (where the smaller, wide window resides), I have considered it's path and think it will be fine.

I was saying probably but that was because the plans are not final yet. If I board on the inner stud roof, I will surface mount the lights to help isolation. Obviously have no choice with the vent holes.

Thanks for confirming the mini split no silencer vent, Gareth.

I have some more questions, but will be putting them together for the next post.

Ground works started on Sunday and I have a huge hole in my back garden along with a giant pile of soil/chalk that I am still in the process of barrowing to the front of the porperty :shock:

I'll start a build thread over in the relevant section and link here after...

Have a good weekend all!

#14

Ok, haven't been posting much but after almost a year of off and on groundworks, the structure of the studio is going up. I have been doing everything pretty much by myself so it’s been slow progress; lots of things for the first time too. The ground works have been getting done in-between trying to renovate our house, plus full time job and kids, it's a lot! haha.

It was clear that I wasn’t ready last year, which is a shame as it would have cost me a lot less money; I’ve literally chosen the worst time in history to build a studio, financially speaking. But still, I’m super excited to get the studio finished now.

I finalised my sketch up plans and double checked all measurements beginning of this month. On Friday 26th the structure build began. I’ll be posting progress in the build forum.

My final sketch up file is attached; hopefully it can help someone as much as Gareth’s helped mine. And on that note, big thank you to Gareth. He’s been really lovely in helping me out with all manner of mundane questions and gave me great confidence to push forward and get started. His build diary has helped me immensely with my own design and will continue to help me along the build process, as our rooms are quite similar (mainly because I stole all his ideas. lol). Legend!

Some more design stills: